Simply ‘Ellen’s’ label stays a secret, here appears to be zero-you to definitely entitled Ellen or Helen, but perhaps a keen ‘Eleanor’ towards the Joanna’s front side (Eleanor away from Aquitaine, mom out-of Joanna’s dad Queen John)
Hello, anyone. It’s it’s interesting; the things i won’t keeps provided to get access to this informative article twenty-5 years back as i was evaluating and you can composing Right here Be Dragons!
The main reason for that it workout is to use, of the a peek at genealogist’s views on the subject and also by asking particular known completely new offer, to decide who was the caretaker from Gwladus Ddu ferch Llywelyn. Was she Joanna, wife regarding Llywelyn ab Iorwerth (Joan Plantagenet: Born circa.1188, passed away. February 1237) or are she Tangwystl ferch Llyarch out of Rhos, mistress from Llywelyn, created circa. 1168, died??
I will follow this having a secondary data with the you’ll be able to lives of an effective ded Susanna, provided out over Queen Henry 111 due to the fact a great hostage from inside the 1228 along with her custody becoming offered so you’re able to Sir Nicholas Verdun and his awesome spouse Clementia.
The brand new feedback of your own Genealogists that i have learned are only one, viewpoints, plus they disagree considerably. No unique proof can be found in either case, but i have to say that the vast majority of hold having Gwladus getting this new daughter out of Joanna. This is particularly true of one’s genealogists of descendants regarding the fresh new De- Braose nearest and dearest, even so they ily are linked with both the Welsh and English regal houses!
The following list out of Llywelyn’s numerous legitimate and you may illegitimate people seems becoming essentially accepted by the all of the genealogists that we has read except for variations over whether or not number 9 most lived. New schedules regarding birth listed below are also debated from the some:
- Gruffudd ap Llywelyn, born circa.1199, died 1244
- Gwladys Ddu ferch Llywelyn, produced circa.1206, died 1251
- Ellen (Helen, Elen) ferch Llywelyn, produced circa 1206? passed away circa 1253,
- Margred (Margaret) ferch Llywelyn, produced circa 1208? died circa 1263,
- Dafydd ap Llywelyn, Prince regarding Wales, born circa 1208 (1211?) (doubts regarding it big date, get a hold of later), died twenty-five March 1246,
- Gwenllian ferch Llywelyn, born circa 1209 died 1281.
- Angharad ferch Llywelyn, born circa 1210, passed away 1257
- Tegwared ap Llywelyn – created circa 1210, you are able to twin to Angharad?
- ‘Helen’, or ‘Susanna’, created circa 1214? Died 1259?
Discover far conflict along side term of parents out-of this type of pupils. There can be standard agreement the just particular pupils out-of Llywelyn’s e Prince off Wales and Ellen (Helen) whom married (1) John new Scot, young buck of your own earl off Chester and you may (2) Robert eHarmony-verifisering de Quincy. No matter if viewpoint try divided over the parents regarding Gwladus, Gwenllian, Margred and you can Susanna, a lot of genealogists We have learnt slim to your the mom getting Joanna.
It is partially with the going schedules regarding beginning while the really because their marriage ceremonies to various marcher lords which, one to supposes, might have wanted in order to align their homes to this of its neighbour, the fresh new Prince from Northern Wales and his awesome partner, the fresh queen regarding England’s child. It’s felt that such lords of March wouldn’t experienced really interest or political inspiration in the marrying out-of their sons towards illegitimate daughters from a good Welsh prince with an excellent Welsh lady.
As to what brands of these students, if by the Joanna, Tangwystl otherwise someone else, they were every titled immediately after people in Llywelyn’s nearest and dearest:
Ken, we have been totally on your own obligations
Llywelyn’s mommy is actually called ‘ed ‘Susanna’ out-of Gwynedd. Their paternal granny is called ‘Gwladus’. The parents out of their grandmother Susanna, was ‘Gruffudd’ ap Cynan and you may ‘Angharad’ away from Flint and you may both their labels got so you’re able to Llywelyn’s college students. Which Susanna in addition to got a sis called ‘Gwenllian’, a similar name because the Llywelyn’s great-grandmother.